Hello listeners. This is the risky planner podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Hey Albert, hey Nate, nice to see you again. Nice to see you too. Now, a little little production note for all of our friends and listeners out there. This is, in fact, our third attempt to start the show this time, yes, and you know, I'm looking forward to, just as a side note, looking forward to recording with you next week when, yes, we'll be in the same place at the same That's right, I'm coming to Toronto next week. Really excited. I am excited to like next next Thursday. So a week from today, as of the recording of this show, I will be presenting at the saffron summit in Toronto. So just give that a give that a hot Google, and you can come see me in person and talk to me, and we'll hopefully this comes out before, then we'll see but yeah, I think we can make that happen. I think we can make that happen. Yeah, we can make that happen. So, you know, Albert, today we're gonna talk about capital investment. There's a lot of uncertainty in the market. Tariffs are on, tariffs are off, uncertainty and consumer behavior uncertainty in all aspects of the global economy. And so we wanted to kind of visit that topic and talk about it from a CapEx perspective. Yeah, definitely. I think it's worth mentioning, just so that we can pat ourselves on the back just as hard as we possibly can on the back. Yeah, me too. It's really it's really great. It can be uncomfortable if you do it for too long. But, you know, generally speaking, it's a good idea anyway. So, all right, a few weeks ago, we spot lit uncertainty, and it's not like we were some kind of incredible future SEER prognosticator types by doing this, but we were absolutely bang on that the number one challenge facing business these days was going to be just uncertainty and not knowing how much things were going to cost and when the tumultuous situation was going to resolve itself, if ever we speculated that companies and governments would would go looking elsewhere than the United States in order to you heard it here first? Yes, that's right, you, you, it's possible that you heard it here first, yes, but yeah, we were bang on on that. But like we hunted, this is one of those we were and, but it's not one of those things that you feel good about being right about, you know, no, no, it's, it's not like a great situation. No, it's like the guy you know in that bet against the housing market, you know, before the crash, yeah, in the US, yeah. Well, Michael Saylor, no, that's the wrong guy. I don't know. But if you're, if your name is Michael Saylor, like, hi, yeah, hey, this being our third false start, I feel like I should jump in here and say that it's not gonna be really interesting. Yeah, great way to lead into a podcast date. It's gonna be super interesting because I'm gonna tell our story this episode. So all right, what are you gonna Yeah, because when it comes to uncertainty, I unfortunately have a lot of experience with business decision making in uncertain, economic environments. I worked for oil major that you've definitely heard of as a consultant for about 10 years, and I worked for a bunch of their affiliates, and I worked in a bunch of different places with them. Like a huge percentage of my formative project experience comes from oil major that you've definitely heard of, that we shall not name, yeah, we won't name them because I'm about to light them up a little bit, but only a little bit. All you out there who work for oil major that I've definitely heard of, you know, I love you. The problem with oil major that you've definitely heard of is that they have lots and lots of opportunities to spend their capital. So if you are sitting on a large reserve of cash, or the ability to freely finance whatever project may cross your mind that morning, then you can pretty much have your pick of all of the available project options, including doing nothing and not building a project. So if you are, say, working for one of the foreign affiliates for oil major that you've definitely heard of. Then you you have, you live in a perpetual state of uncertainty, of like, not only is my project going to get funded, but what other projects in the ecosystem are going to get funded instead of mine? So there, there's this, like, shell game of money that happens inside of companies like this one, where, you know, there's, there's all these other projects that are competing for the same money that you are, and frequently the decision is taken to simply do nothing. So I'm going to talk about the costume sandpaper. Yeah, I don't understand that reference, but it's funny. I don't know. I just, I mean, making stuff up all right, like that match. Let's go, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sandpaper that match, I guess so. One project for one of these affiliates was to build a new in situ extraction facility, which means that, you know, those kind of pump jack things where you in West Texas, you see the thing going up and down. It oil go up. Yeah, that's, that's the technical term. So we was basically to build a fancy, technologically advanced version of that as like a pilot project to prove out the technology for extracting oil in northern Alberta. So very high NPV, it was a slam dunk. It had already gone through its gating and sanctioning approvals. It had already had its funding approved. On the affiliate side, there was a full project team of which I was a part. I was going to be running the camp construction part of it, so like the man camp and the amenities facility and that kind of stuff, like the commercial construction component. And then we found out that the oil major that you've definitely heard of pulled its funding, and the project was going to be put on hold indefinitely. And to my knowledge, and based on my secret sources within oil major you've definitely heard of, it is still on hiatus. You may think, Oh, well, they put the project on hold right sure. They had built roads through the arboreal forest in northern Alberta that now need to be maintained. They had bought equipment that needed to be dispensed of and warehoused like the list goes on there. There was a whole project team that existed after the project was notionally canceled, just to babysit the remit, the remnants of the infrastructure that they put together, that they built, to babysit the Yeah, that's right, yeah, and also to make sure that all of the pieces of equipment that we bought could find new homes, preferably internally, because, you know, if those new homes go externally, you're just selling things at a loss. It's like the used car effect. You know, you drive your car off the lot and loses 20% of its value immediately. Same thing happens with, say, a furnace. As it turns out, your story is way more interesting. I was going to talk about, you know, sleeping in gutters or something like that. But, yeah, thank you for that. That's a great answer. Thanks. Mine's on topic. How dare I, yeah, how Derek, how dare you? I think, I think there's a lot of key macro indicators in 2025 sort of similar to, you know, what probably went into, the planning, the construction, you know, the team. But right now we have, you know, inflation or deflation. Well, who knows what's going to happen that's affecting construction. We have interest rates that. I mean, who knows where those are going to go? Supply chain problems, you know, trade problems. I mean, there's a lot happening. So like, I guess Albert, to get us started in this environment, many organizations are, let's say they're pausing capital expenditures you talked about with that oil major that we shall not name, not because the opportunities aren't there, but maybe because risk feels harder to measure. Yeah, that's a big chunk of it for sure. I mean planning at a macro level, within a large organization always includes some amount of risk estimation, I'll call it, because you have to know what risks you're trying to mitigate to even know what projects you're planning to run. So for example, you don't replace a brand new transformer. You replace one that's at risk of failure. The point is that you identify projects largely through global portfolio level or corporate level risk analysis, and then you price those projects with the best information available in the moment, which in the super early doors is not very much. Not much in it. Not much information. No. So when, when it comes time to to do all of your planning, and I this is a similar topic to one that we covered in our risk webinar not too long ago. So go check that out. You have to incorporate rather a lot of risk, depending on where you are, early, you know, in your project life cycle. And now those risks are even more pronounced because of currency issues. And as you mentioned, interest rate issues, and I have a quote here from Jerome Powell, who's the Chair of the US Federal Reserve. He says, right now, I know right quote. While uncertainty remains elevated, it is now becoming clear that the tariff increases will be significantly larger than expected. So this was delivered before so called Liberation Day. Quote continues, the same is likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth. Close quotes when the Fed chair says higher inflation and slower growth, the hairs on the back of your neck should stand right up, because this is classic like project managers, directors of projects capex, they're they're thinking, they're feeling, yes, yeah. Because on the one hand, if you're a borrower trying to get money from lenders, from the lender's perspective, you represent a higher risk to them, because your projects have a higher likelihood of failure, and it's going to be more difficult to cement trade and procurement agreements than it would have been a year ago. So those interest rates are going to go up to cover their risk. So we're going to have higher inflation and higher interest rates in the medium to long term, and slower growth, which is going to encourage people with money. To save that money and wait for the situation to get better. And that is a situation called stagflation. Stagflation, I like it as in a stagnant economy that somehow produces inflation. Yep, it's a it's a bellwether of a truly awful economic time when it's an awful economic time like, does that mean that we're just going to pull back on construction projects or infrastructure, or, you know, other investments in improving the cities and the towns and the, you know, the airports around us, is it probably does mean that to some degree. It probably does mean that now that doesn't necessarily mean that. It has to mean that. And this is kind of getting to your point from earlier, because we there are still opportunities to do work, but the bar just gets commensurately higher. Yeah, if we're getting so we're moving to this sort of negative period, and planners have looked at and analyzed the risk. How are we seeing like our clients responding to this environment. What are they doing? What kind of patterns? Well, our immediate clients tend to be government entities, like a lot of them are so and in Canada. So government entities in Canada are continuing to invest as per normal. But there is, I mean, I shouldn't say normal, because, as you know, there's, there's an election cycle going on in Canada right now, and the biggest topic of conversation, by a long, long way, is trade partnerships, like, if you are, say, for example, Mark Carney, the liberal candidate for prime minister, then you are under a great deal of pressure. Not only is he a candidate for prime minister, he is currently the sitting Prime Minister, so he's under, he's under a lot of pressure to deal with Donald Trump, who is increasingly appearing to be a bad faith actor who doesn't necessarily adhere to His promises that he makes or the agreements that he forms. You're increasingly under pressure to make decisions at the national level based on trying to leverage a relationship that basically no longer exists, and to hear Mark Carney say it, he's like, we're just walking away from the US entirely, right? So that does put some pressure on our clients who have projects planned where there is cross border procurement, because you're starting to hear some horror stories out of the US of shipments showing up from overseas and getting stuck in port until the companies that ordered them can can get there and pay the tariff duties. What does that mean? Cross Border procurement? Like it sounds like you're just getting into that. Yeah, totally. So let me, let me give you some statistics here from the National Association of Manufacturers, which is a US Trade Organization, about 56% of US goods imports like so imported stuff that comes across the board, like to answer your question, they're manufacturing inputs. So over half of the things that are imported into the United States are inputs into another process that will produce something, you know, quote, unquote, domestically. From the United States' perspective, about three times as many of those inputs come from Canada and Mexico, as opposed to China. And China is, of course, Trump's big boogeyman when it comes to foreign trade. And, you know, they've got, like, a, I don't know, 6,000,000% tariff on them at this point, but So, so this is like, this is like, you know, raw, you know, minerals to, like, steal i beams, and then we're importing, like, this is basically the input process that you're referring to. Is it something else it could be fit? What, from your perspective, in mind, might look like finished goods, but they just happen to be an intermediate, you know, like, for example, if you go down to pep boy, Pep Boys, very us reference there. So anyway, right? Sinclair, gas, maybe. Let's head down. Okay, sure. Let's head down to that one with the owl on it that I can never remember the name of Anyway, go down to Pep Boys. You could buy yourself a new car battery. You can buy yourself door panels for your car. You could buy yourself all kinds of things that are manufacturing inputs to making a car in the first place. Okay? So the difference between a manufacturing input and a finished product is oftentimes just the manner in which it is used. So the things that are coming in could be very much finished products. And I read a an interesting, extremely brief analysis of this, thanks to the current tariff situation, if you want to import a Chinese battery, that's like 150% tariff. If you want to import a Chinese battery inside of a Chinese laptop, that's only going to carry a 20% tariff. But if you import a Chinese battery inside of a Vietnamese Nate made laptop, then that carries no tariff whatsoever. So trying to make decisions in these kinds of situations is absurd, because it might actually be cheaper to order whole laptops break the batteries out. Why? So put that in the perspective of, like our listeners, if you're a project manager, so you're is that what a person who is in charge of the budget for a capital project actually thinking, Oh, definitely. I mean, they're not gonna, they're not going to be. Thinking about buying Vietnamese laptops and breaking them down. I mean, there's, there's a there's a degree of absurdity that that even this podcast will not indeed, but they will be thinking about what it looks like to skirt the tariffs or incorporate them into their pricing in some way, because it's all about uncertainty. You know, we were talking earlier about early project planning carrying a very wide band of uncertainty. And by the way, that same Nam National Association of Manufacturers survey found that 76% of US manufacturers cited uncertainty as their top business challenge of this quarter. So it's not, you know, abstract like but, but you can plan for it. Now, how much uncertainty you plan for is very much a How long is a piece of string, type of uncertain question in itself? It's hard to know. But there are some projects that are so profitable that would make so much money and be such a difficult opportunity to pass up. That kind of projects would those be? Well, it's difficult to know. It would depend very much on the industry, right? But you know, things that carry, you know, huge potential margin, especially in a world where things are moving back and not just in the US, but but production is moving, you know, more internally facing where, like the EU is looking to trade more with itself, Canada is talking about lifting trade barriers within between provinces, and trying to make it easier to do business within Canada, so we can rely less on the US. But every country is doing this like there's, there's a Pan Pacific partnership that's that's going to be doing more trade with China and with India, probably, and there's a lot of stuff that is happening that that kind of turns trade inward, so that the US kind of ends up on an island on its own. So if you're doing a project anywhere, including in the US, your opportunities, like, if you have a project on deck that is very much a locally, you know, driven project, like a lot of local inputs, a lot of local talent, it's being built locally, and it has a high potential ROI. You you put a wider uncertainty band on that project early doors, it's probably still going to look profitable when you run your financial calculations, hmm, one of the main results of uncertainty is hesitation, right? Like you just don't know, so you don't do anything. And that hesitation comes at a cost for capital projects, doesn't it? It does, right? Everything is more expensive in the future, right? In, I was about to say in a healthy economy, which, you know, we're increasingly not in a healthy economy, but in a healthy economy, inflation is actually a good thing. You know, low inflation indicates that there is steady growth in the economy, and people are not generally afraid of inflation that hangs up anywhere between like two and 5% five is pretty high, but you know, two to 3% is where you would expect it to be. When I was doing cost estimating for oil major that you've definitely heard of their book rate for inflation was 2.2% for years and years. What does that mean? Book grade? It means like, they have, like, an estimating handbook that says, here's what you should use for basic you know, like, for example, average import duties, if you don't know what country they're coming from, will be in your in your estimating handbook, and they'll say, this is what you should use. A cost of capital is one of those, and that's cost of capital is a really important input into financial calculations. So there's all these things are documented at the corporate level, so that folks like myself, who are doing project level work are going to be measuring their projects potential for success on the same yardstick as everybody else in the organization. So there's probably a lot of scurrying at the corporate level to re baseline all of these? Oh, absolutely. But this is, you know, you were saying earlier, there's a cost to just waiting. Some of these companies that have these sort of estimating handbooks that have all these numbers in them that are meant to be used across the organization, may be waiting to update those numbers, putting all of their investments on pause until they have more information to work from. I don't know that to be true, but it sure seems like it would be given the, you know, the situation, and if they are, in fact, waiting, then as they wait, those numbers are going to change, which is the purpose of waiting, right? That's right. And the numbers tend to go up and not down, so costs are going to increase, right? We talked earlier, you know, Jerome Powell said it like costs are increasing while the economy stagnates. That's a really, that's a really dangerous situation stagnation, and part is driven by reticence to invest. So yeah, you know, if your project is, and we'll save this for the piece of advice, but if your project is potentially profitable, even despite all these problems, then it might be worth doing. So if the decision to invest is ultimately delayed, there's going to be ripple effects totally So let's dig into the cost, schedule delivery, like give me some example. What are those ripple effects from the corporate decision being delayed? So looking back to my earlier example about the oil major with their capital spending on pause, yep. I mean, this is a good example of the ripple effects. Like, if they wanted to stand that project back up, it would, they would have to do so at a significant cost, like a hugely significant cost. So, you know, obviously the schedule is extended if you put something on pause, but how much it's extended by is unknown, because by putting the project on pause, you're not just taking the pause period and adding it to the end of your schedule. You're adding it to the middle of your schedule, wherever you happens to be. So if there were, say, manufacturing agreements in place where you secured your spot on a manufacturing line in Taiwan to get some chips delivered so that you can build your fancy new device or whatever like. Let's say you're building monitoring equipment for detecting dangerous gasses, you know, a lot of that stuff. This is a good example of when manufacturing inputs would come from other countries, and then things would be assembled either in the US or Canada or in some other Western nation with a commensurately higher like labor cost, like the specialized labor to put all those things together is often, not always, but often in in the country where the things likely to be produced. So you get lots of made in Canada, instrumentation and things like that. All that stuff is coming from, from overseas. So in addition to losing your place in the queue, the price is now going up because of potential trade impacts, and the tariffs aren't just going to impact stuff coming into the US. They're going to raise costs generally because of all the other factors we already discussed. So now the price is going to change, like, if you're already reneging on your agreement to buy the chips in the first place, you're going to have to make new agreements, and that's going to take time. You have to work all of those new numbers into your revised plan, including all of the additional schedule that this is added. That schedule itself comes at a cost. Remember all those people managing the the corpse of the project? Yeah, exactly. So those people don't work for free, and all of their their salaries are being either capitalized against this asset that's maybe not ever going to exist again, which in which case you might be facing a gigantic write off, or they're being absorbed as OpEx. And I guarantee you, the OPEX budgets weren't configured to consider the increased cost of money, the increased cost of the goods, the increased cost of benched individuals who were supposed to be working on capitalized projects. So the ripple effects are gargantuan. They're difficult to overstate. Honestly, it doesn't actually seem like, okay, so ripple maybe that's the wrong way to describe it for just bear with me. It's like, it sounds so circular. Like, where do you how do you even start, like, with that? So the way that you were just describing that, that whole, like the ripple effect. It just, it's circ it sounds circular. If I'm a scheduler, like, where, where do you even begin to start redoing? I mean, this gets back to, you know, earlier we were talking about Quantifying uncertainty and incorporating that into the planning process, right? I mean, ultimately, you know, as estimators really love it when I say this, but estimating is basically fancy guesswork. Boom, okay, right. Yeah, sorry guys, but it is. You're making a guess. Is it an educated guess based on the best information available? Absolutely? Yes, it is. Absolutely it is. That doesn't mean that it's not a guess double you're Yeah, you're right. Take that, but you know, you know a good estimators, good guess is going to be pretty darn close to the truth a lot of the time. Yeah, all the time, maybe not, but a lot of the time. Okay, these days, those good guesses are going to be farther from the truth than they might have been under other circumstances, but they're still valuable. So if you assume that things have gotten 50% worse from the perspective of predictability, then that translates to 50% more uncertainty range on your estimates, 50% more uncertainty in your schedule durations. So if you just assume worst case scenario in place for that, by the way, large corporations very bad about planning for the best or, quote unquote, most likely case scenario because of optimism bias, the most likely case is, generally speaking, actually the best case, right? So, right. So, if they're planning for the best case scenario in a situation like this, they're guaranteed to get surprised, and surprises are bad, the way. So, optimism is bad. Optimism is great. Optimism bias is not you know, the old saw hope for the best and plan for the worst, for the worst. Yep, that that is never more true than it is in capital project delivery, indeed, especially now. I mean, the worst. The worst is, you know, your schedules extend by, oh my god, days, and your costs increase by, oh my god, dollars. But you can, you can plan for that. You can put that into your planning inputs and just see what you get in terms of NPV, so you're like, it's kind of the there's a range, a confidence range that you're referring to, like, there's, but it's so multi layered, it sounds like, oh, extremely Yeah. There's so many variables that it's hard to decide on, you know what point at which I'm more confident? The Nate, yeah, how do you know when you cross that barrier into it being like a worthwhile investment? I mean, this is, you know, I'm going to touch back to that example project I gave earlier, of the project being stood down rather unexpectedly, from the perspective of the people working on it, like that project looked profitable on paper, from the perspective of the affiliate that was going to be executing it, but the the company that was providing the funding to that company knew more in terms of what was going to be, you know, the likely risks and what the capital could otherwise have been used for, like, basically, they had a stronger view on the opportunity cost. So one of the ways that project planners and I would assume that major projects organizations are already doing this, because it's a sensible next step. They need to call all these people into a gigantic summit meeting on teams resume or whatever, and just set some guardrails like guardrails, so the organizations that hold the cash for these smaller projects, groups like the the multinational conglomerates that are the, you know, the the piggy bank for the affiliates that are actually executing projects, they need to say to the executing organizations, here is how much money you have to spend, and here's what we expect to get from that. Here are some, some guidelines for what we can do and what we can't do with regards to avoiding tariff costs or reducing uncertainty or accelerating schedule. Those need to happen at an organizational level. They can't happen at the at the project level, because no, those people just are operating at a dearth of information, not because they're, you know, stupid or bad at their jobs, because there just isn't information available to them, like there is for the larger groups, like they're the parent company doesn't have sort of an accurate economic outlook to provide that, because it sounds a bit of a like what you're describing sounds kind of fancy, like fantasy, almost that like never happens, no. Well, I mean, it's not exactly, no, it's. There are absolutely planning consortia that happen in in large organizations. I've been to them, they're typically very dull because, like, remember, last year, it's gonna look a lot like that, you know, so three days later, you've learned that lesson. But the the main reason I'm bringing this up in this case, is because it's not so much that the organizations can magic their way into better information. It's more that they can tell the affiliate organizations what the risk tolerance is, how much they they can they can safely lose. Okay, they wouldn't necessarily put it in those terms, but they're basically telling people here's the kinds of risks that you are allowed to onboard. So even in the presence of completely uncertain, you know, business landscape or financial landscape, they can still tell you, like, here's what our risk appetite is, you know, here's the kind of stuff you can do when you were talking about the parent company versus, you know, the affiliate. What is a high performing team that is running the projects at the affiliate look like? How are they integrating all of these things that we've talked about? Well, there's a pulse of the profession report from the PMI that just came out, and that kind of serves to answer your question a little bit, because this this edition, focused on what they call business acumen. So business acumen, in the case of this particular report, is defined as a combination of extensive skills, like with more than seven, I think, is what it said, skills and expertise in the application of multiple quote, unquote, roadblock mitigation strategies, you know? So, okay, what does that mean? So roadblock mitigation strategy is, let's, let's take an example of a roadblock, uncertain cost of capital. So if you at the project level or at the affiliate level, don't know how much you should expect to spend on financing for your project's capital cost, then one of the roadblock mitigation strategies mentioned in the report is escalation to upper management. It is not drive right through it. It is not drive right through it. Okay, so an individual with high business acumen will be skilled enough in enough different areas of project management to recognize when there is a problem that they are incapable of solving a roadblock, and then find a way to go solve it. Okay, so creative solution earring is only one of the potential roadblock mitigation strategies. So, you know, we have another client that's looking to fund one of their projects primarily through sales, like retail sales, that's a very unusual advanced construction. Yeah, exactly. So you know, even in advance of construction, they're selling finished units of the thing that they're building. And that's not uncommon in the high end real estate world, but it is uncommon to have your project as fully underwritten by those Off Plan sales compared to other sources of funding, like, for example, traditional lent capital, right? And so the roadblocks, like, there isn't just one or two, like you've already talked about, how uncertainty and the risks that underpin that uncertainty are quite broad, yeah, and I. Um, you know, on a previous webinar, we talked about, you know, some of those risks and how we visualize. We actually published a white paper as well that talks about, you know, how do you visualize? How do you quantify those risks and helping organizations do do a better job at quantifying and evaluating and visualizing, you know, those risks and helping to make them sort of interactive a little bit. Yeah, that's something that's key for some of our clients. It is especially since at the project level, we were just talking about how you can kind of made up that project program, portfolio, corporate level, sometimes the push needs to come from the top down. Of you need to incorporate these risks into your project planning. I've seen that too, where we'd say the PMO, usually it's a little bit more local than the entire company. But these days, who knows? You're telling project teams, you know, you thou shalt include this kind of risk. You know, thou shalt include a regulatory risk associated to the renewal of a license or something like that. So there are certain like checklist items that every project team has to, has to include in their risk analysis and in their planning. So if you have a simple, easy way of accessing that information that is made it up with, especially if it joins inputs and outputs, that's that's a great situation, because you want to be able to see like, not only did I assume all of these things were real, did I include them in my planning? How much are they affecting things? That's that's a visualization exercise more than anything else, because you can, yeah, no doubt, take your pick of people who know how to do that. Estimation. There's lots of them. It's just getting them out in front of, you know, normal, everyday project execution, folks, is a real challenge. Let's, let's wrap it up. If you had, you know, a final insight that you wanted to give to project executives on managing uncertainty in 2025 what would it be? I want to start by saying that I'm no more capable than any of the other business e podcasters and planning professionals on the world right now, maybe a little bit more than some, but certainly not better than the best at answering this question. It's a really difficult time right now to even know what to expect, but to the extent that I do have some insights here, I would say that it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that all investment would be bad and that would make things worse. Okay, again, reference earlier conversation on stagflation. Here it's you don't want to make the situation worse, like you don't want to sink your company entirely through inaction. If you can afford to put your cash on hold and just wait it out. Then maybe that's the right choice for you. But if you can't, it's it's time to look at which of your projects is going to end up profitable, even like in spite of yourself, like if you, if you, if you have something that is such a massive slam dunk that it would be foolish to pass up under almost any circumstances, then now is the time to do it. But you got to put all those big fat uncertainty bars on everything. You know, you've come and it's really difficult that uncertainty bars. That's right, that's my actual piece of advice. Is make those you know how they were fat before? Make them even fatter. Yeah, they're a lot bigger now. They got to be hugely fat. Corpulent. They must be corpulent. They're bigly. Albert, thank you so much. Thank you. Nate, thanks, everybody. Now in the podcast, we refer to a white paper. We referred to a risk webinar. I want you to go check out dokaysh.com, forward slash project risk, which is our white paper on on quantifying and visualizing risk and your capital projects. And then we've also posted, and I'll include it into in the show notes, a link to our risk webinar that we recently posted, and it's on YouTube and on our website. Dokaish.com, thanks so much. Albert, thank you. Nate, good stuff. Talk to y'all later. Bye, bye. Thanks for tuning in to the risky planner podcast. We hope today's conversation was informative, and above all else, inspires you to excellence in what you do. I'd also like to thank Thompson Igbo Igbo for letting us use his excellent music on our show. If you like what you hear, check him out@igbomusic.com you.